Lisowczycy

[Kadrinazi]

Ja osobiście jestem daleki od bronienia 'legendy' lisowczykow - jak już pisałem kilka postow powyżej dla mnie są oni formacją bardzo przereklamowaną. Jak napisał Tofik - grunt to PR Faktem jest że w kontekście wyprawy mołdawskiej brakuje u prof. Wisnera szczegołow.

Co do 'Cecory' p. Śledzińskiego - jak pisałem pracy tej nie znam, posiadam za to 'Zbaraż' i mam takie dziwne przeczucie (poparte opiniami z ktorymi spotkałem się w necie) że autor nie poprawił warsztatu ani umiejętności korzystania z materiałow źrodłowych i opracować...

[Tofik]

Czy prawdą jest, że nawet 100 lat po smucie w Rosji, dzieci rosyjskie straszono Lisowskim? Co mówią o tym źródła?

[Kadrinazi]

A czemu miałyby o tym mówić źródła z okresu WWP? Mogło być jak w przypadku 'wizyty' dywizji Czarnieckiego w Danii - opowieści o 'wyczynach' przechodziły z ust do ust.

[mariuszdragula]

Na terenie Rzeszy Niemieckiej matki straszyły dzieci pojęciem "Der Polnische Kosacken" do czasów napoleońskich, był to oczywiście efekt działalności naszych "lisków".

[maxgall]

A czemu miałyby o tym mówić źródła z okresu WWP? Mogło być jak w przypadku 'wizyty' dywizji Czarnieckiego w Danii - opowieści o 'wyczynach' przechodziły z ust do ust.

Czrniecki też Lisowczyk, więc pewnie i metody miał podobne

[učitel]

Hi, friends of Polish history. I am a new FORUM-writer. I am Czech, but I write English because the rules of Polish historical portal permit writing text in Polish or English only. To understand one another I use a bit simple English. I understand Polish text quite well. But If I wrote Polish, I would have lots of mistakes in my text. Further, Czech PC-keyboard misses special signs necessary for Polish letters and words.

I am interested in Lisowczycy for many years, especially in their missions to Habsburg´s countries.

I read main Polish postwar historical books about Lisowczycy: Magnuszewski´s "Z dziejów elearów polskich" (1978), and Wisner´s "Lisowczycy" (issued in 2004). I´m afraid, I haven´t read yet other Polish books describing Lisowczycy´s actions in Russia, Inflants and against Osmans. Also I don´t know these historic events exactly. That´s why I can´t add my opinion to those topics. But, If I should compare both of books, generally I can say, I appreciate Magnuszewski´s book more than Wisner´s one. It is truth that Wisner´s work tries to contain the whole anabase of Lisowski´s formation. I compared both books with Czech historical literature and with historic registers and sources of many Moravian towns. Magnuszewski was the first historician, who found mistakes at works of older Polish IXX-century historicians like Szelagowski and Dzieduszycki. In 1978 he was writing about it in his book. In spite of having no knowledge from Moravian town archives and sources, Magnuszewski very exactly describes historic events in Moravia during Lisowczycy´s missions in 1623-24. Further, Mr. Magnuszewski was the only Polish historician, who was comparing Polish historical resources at this topic with Czech historicians - especially with Prof. Polišenský. (Surely, at post-cold war period Wisner could employ also military archives and sources in Vienna.)

Therefore I cannot understand, why Wisner in his newer historical work ignored earlier Magnuszewski´s corrections (the same non-chronologic facts and mistakes like Szelagowski and others).

So Prof. Wisner, as well as Polish IXX-century historicians, brought nothing new about Lisowczycy´s missions to Moravian territory in 1623-24.

[Kadrinazi]

Welcome

Actually prof. Wisner's 'Lisowczycy' from 2004 is just another edition of book from 90's (I think), early version of book on that subject written by prof. Wisner was printed in 1976 Maybe You want to write to prof. Wisner and ask Him about that? Lack of Czech-based sources is really strange though, I need to admint that.

[učitel]

Hi, KADRINAZI (and others).

I know, there are both Wisner´s editions (from 1976, and 1995) at „The Slavistic Library“ in Prague.

(Before I go to Prague to borrow titles) - If I go and borrow these titles at this library, is it worth, or not for me? Will it have any effect to borrow 1976-, and 1995 editions and to compare them with 2004 one?

I see, there was passing a similar discussion on this topic at FORUM early. But, I learnt nothing! So I´d like to repeat this question once more: Can anybody explain me what´s the different between 1976-, 1995-, and 2004 publications? Has anybody each book at his bookcase? (More photos and pictures at 2004 edition isn´t important for me!) I interested in text only. I suppose, last publications should be better than older ones!

[učitel]

Another appendix:

1) I remember, at Wisner´s 2004 edition there is the note: „The second, added and overworked edition“. It means that both edition from 1976, and from 1995, should be the same! Probably in 1995 the book was issued by other Polish editor, or as a reprint.

2) I noticed I had read in Wisner´s closing text, that he appreciate Magnuszewski´s book (in fact the biography of hetman Stroynowski) as „very interesting work“.

It indicates another question: Why doesn´t prof. Wisner include those „Magnuszewski´s interesting things“ into his overworked, newer book in 2004?

I don´t know, but I ´ve got a feeling, as if prof. Wisner would not agree with Magnuszewski´s conclusions!

[učitel]

Pod Białą Gorą wcale nie byli siłą decydującą, zresztą było ich tam raptem 800 - przydali się za to bardzo do pogoni za uciekającymi Czechami (stąd liczne chorągwie).

Hi, Kadrinazi.

In battle at Weissberg (Biala Góra) Lisowczycy didn´t fight against Czechs, but against Transylvanian riders. Thus – against Hungarian!

The Thirty Years´ War in Europe – until 1625 - was not a war of nations, but a war of religious views! (Unlike the Rzeczpospolita´s war actions, The Thirty Years´ War in Europe meant a conflict of two religious groups – between the Catholics, and the Protestants.)

In battle at Weissberg – on the Catholic side took part in not only soldiers from Austria or Bavaria, but also from Lombardia, Burgundia, Naples, Brabant, and Flanders. Later mathematician and philosopher - René Descartes - fought in units of the Catholic side, too. Like on the Protestant side took part soldiers from Czechia, Moravia, Silesia, Transylvania, Holland and England.

Maybe is known that Rusinowski´s Lisowczycy were subordinated under Dampierre´s command, but when Henri Duval de Dampierre was ordered to Hungarian front in summer 1620, Lisowczycy got under Buquoy´s command. But, when Catholic troops drew to Prague basin, Charles Bonaventura Buquoy was hurt on his sex from a bullit near Rakovník. He was substituted by Maxmilian von Lichtenstein in command. However, no main commander wanted Lisowczycy under his command! In the end they entered under Bavarian supreme commander – under Johann Tserklaes Tilly´s command. Under his command Lisowczycy attacked Hungarian riders, that were sent by Bethlen Gábor. Transylvanian riders´ commander was Ferenc Rhédey; but the riders were badly trained and little brave, though there were total number of 4,000. Lisowczycy hunted them up to the Vltava river. Many of those riders fell and got drowned at this river.

[Kadrinazi]

Lisowczycy were to capture 52 standards at Biała Góra, including personnal standard of 'winter king', so obviously they had to pursue Bohemian forces as well as Hungarians couldn't have so many standards

[widiowy7]

Kadrinazi a mógłbyś sens dyskusji przedstawić w języku z nad Wisły?

[Kadrinazi]

Kolega zza południowej granicy próbuje ustalić czym różnią się różne wydania pracy prof. Wisnera o lisowczykach, zastanawia się dlaczego praca prof. Magnuszewskiego nie jest uznawana za lepszą (mimo że np. kwestię kampanii na Morawach opisał o wiele lepiej od pracy prof. Wisnera); z kolei w ostatnim poście pisze nieco o działaniach lisowczyków i o tym że Wojna Trzydziestoletnia do 1625 roku była wojną religijną. Tak w dużym skrócie

[učitel]

Hi, Kadrinazi. (Thanks for a short translation for widiowy7)

I know about „52 captured standards“, but I´m sure, this is certainly a big nonsens! This information wrote Wisner, but he took it from curate Dembolecki. But Wisner wrote „supposedly 52 standards“! And Dembolecki glorified Lisowczycy very much! It is a well-known thing. Magnuszewski at his work (1978) wrote about 20 captured standards and doubted about this number 52!

Remember, the battle at the Bílá hora was quite a small battle! After last historical research, at this battle didn´t die more than 900 soldiers together!

Believe me, I´ve got a lot of literature about the Bílá hora battle. And Czech historicians otherwise write about Lisowczycy´s participation at the Bílá hora battle, but they had a supporting role only.

Another information about capture of the personnal standard of „Heidelberczyk“comes from Dembolecki too, but Wiesner wrote „supposedly“ captured the personnal standard …

I doubt about it, because king Friedrich was not personally at the battlefield at all. He was just hosting English ambassador at Prague castle. But it doesn´t mean that his standard couldn´t be at the battlefield!

I don´t want to say by these words, that Lisowczycy did not kill or did not capture any Czech soldier!!!

[Kadrinazi]

Looking on number of companies that were present in Protestant armies in that battle I wouldn't rule out those 52 standards at all after all Lisowczycy were (in)famous looters and could capture many abandoned standards laying on battlefield.

I'm quite surprise about that low number of killed soldiers - could You wrote something more about it, what is that last historical research that You mentioned?