WWII-planes that were more successful in other (foreign) air forces then in its own air force

[učitel]

The causes of these paradoxes are various and sometimes obvious, but I can say, among those planes could belong:

Bell P-39 Airacobra (more successful plane in Soviet Air Force than in U.S.A.A.F.)

Curtiss P-36 Mohawk (more successful plane in L´Armée de l´Air than in U.S.A.A.F.)

Brewster Buffalo (more successful plane in Finnish Air Force than in U.S.A.A.F.)

Morane-Saulnier MS.406 (more successful plane in Finnish Air Force than in L´Armée de l´Air)

Vultee Vengeance (more successful plane in Indian and Australian Air Force than in U.S.A.A.F.)

Bristol Beaufort (more successful plane in Australian Air Force than in R.A.F.)

Heinkel He 112 (more successful plane in Romanian Air Force than in Luftwaffe)

Fiat CR. 32 (more successful plane in Spanish Nationalist´s Air Force than in Regia Aeronautica)???

Fiat G.50 Freccia (more successful plane in Finnish Air Force than in Regia Aeronautica)????

PZL 37 „Loš“ (more successful plane in Romanian Air Force than in Polish Air Force)????

These are only several examples that I´ve meant.

[poldas]

Ku czemu zmierzasz?

Gdzie masz Fiata CR-42?

Byczek "Buffalo", to był dopiero początek rozwoju amerykańskiej myśli odnośnie techniki lotniczej, a potem pojawił się F4U.

Ideał taki podobny do Ju-87.

Ale ten motor... Mniammm - P&W R-2800.

Potem już niczego lepszego nie wymyślono w kwestii tłokowego napędu do samolotów.

Łosia se odpuść, bo to wydmuszka na miarę polskich możliwości podobnie jak czeskie Aero 300.

[učitel]

Poldas,

1) I don´t know if you undestand correctly the question of this subforum. I think so when I can see your question „Ku czemu zmierzasz?“.

2) And what about Fiat C.R. 42?? Does other air force achieve better successes in this type than Regia Aeronautica? If I remember, Fiat CR 42 was on armament in Hungarian AF, Swedish AF, Belgian AF, Greek AF, Italian Allied AF, Luftwaffe. Hard to say if Hungarians were more successful in Fiat CR 42 (at the Eastern Front) than Italians….. I don´t think so!

3) The fact is that US Navy used Buffalos a short time only, they were soon changed by Wildcats. Finnish Air Force obtained its Buffalos before the war, and more advanced fighters couldn´t be supply there because Finnland belonged to Axis countries. So, they had to fly and fight in those planes which they´ve had. But these things don´t change the fact at all, that Finnish airmen achieved much more success in Buffalos then Americans.

4) A bit similar view is on PZL P-37 Los. Polish Army didn´t fight more than one month. (But it has fought.) So Polish airmen didn´t achieve naturally many successes. But Rumanian Royal Air Force had some P-37s at the Eastern Front and this type was using for bombing attacks on Russian cities, like Odessa for example. Then – the history there is a bit similar, as Buffalo in Finnish AF.

5) Aero A-300 was only the PROTOTYPE!! This type wasn´t in armament – no this type was in service with Czechoslovak bombing units! (I don´t know - maybe a similar example as Wilk, Zubr and other Polish prototypes). So it is also a nonsence to argue that Avia B.35 (for example) achieved „better successes“ in Bulgarian AF than in Czechoslovak AF!! Czechoslovak Air Force hadn´t any possibilities to fight because all main European contries accepted the Munich agreement!

[poldas]

No dobra;

Weźmy na przykład PZL-24.

To polski produkt, który nie występował w polskim lotnictwie wojskowym.

Karierę te samoloty robiły w Grecji.

Były też w składzie bułgarskich, rumuńskich i tureckich sił powietrznych.

Fiat CR-42 to przykład maszyny używanej do samego końca wojny.

Niemcy go używali jako szturmowca.

Co do PZL-37 to zgadzam się.

One większą karierę zrobiły w Rumunii, niż w obronie Polski.

Samoloty czechosłowackiej produkcji to sobie za bardzo nie powalczyły, ale kojarzę iż jakieś Smoliki i Letovy do Polski przyleciały i były użytkowane bojowo w trakcie Kampanii Wrześniowej.

AirCobra P39.

Masz rację. Te maszyny zrobiły największą karierę w ZSRR.

Sam Pokryszkin nie chciał się przesiąść z tego samolotu na jakieś nowe Jak-9, czy Ła-5FN.

Mam nadzieję, że teraz odpowiedziałem bardziej merytorycznie.

[učitel]

ZGODA.

I have expected that somebody will notice PZL P.24. This is a bit rare thing. PZL P.24 was more advanced version of a basic type P.11 but produced for the export only. Many years ago I have read at Pokryshkin´s memoir „The War in the Clouds“, that the most maneuverable plane, that he met in a fight at all, was Rumanian PZL P.24!! Interesting!

Also a rare fact is a combat using of French light fighter Caudron CR.714 (Finnish Air Force obtained this type at number of six, but they stored them as useless in combat). But, when Polish airmen in France made some combat flights in these planes against Germans in 1940, they appreciated the Caudron performances as quite low, but the maneuverability seemed to be better than with MS.406 C!! So, it is a fact, Polish airmen during Battle of France were more successful in this type than French pilots.

Concerning Fiat CR.42 Falco - lots of air forces were successful in this type. Something like was Gloster Gladiator, which was on armament at many air forces, instead of R.A.F. - Belgian-, Norwegian-, Greek-, South African-, Finnish-. But, I mean, this type did its best job at British and South African Air Forces.

[poldas]

Wiara, Nadzieja, Miłość - Malta 1940.

Kojarzysz?

Jak to można zrobić legendę w sumie... z niczego.

[učitel]

Poldas, I don´t understand the sense of your sentences but I think, it has concerned Battle of Malta. Till September 1941, the sky over Malta has then been an area where met biplanes (like in Northern Africa in 1940). Fiat CR.42 Falco on Italian- and Gloster Sea Gladiator on British side. Both biplanes were excellent and maneuverable, Fiat Falco was probably more maneuverable, but Gladiators were probably more durable, had stronger armament and British pilots were better trained as well.

[učitel]

- Poldas napisal: Samoloty czechosłowackiej produkcji to sobie za bardzo nie powalczyły, ale kojarzę iż jakieś Smoliki i Letovy do Polski przyleciały i były użytkowane bojowo w trakcie Kampanii Wrześniowej.

 

- Yes, it´s truth. Avia B-534 and Letov Š-328 saw some action in Polish campaign. (Sgt. František Hanovec even shot down one Lublin R-XIII in B-534, together with other two Slovak pilots.) But - do you know any foreign air force, where were Avias and Letovs more successful than in Czech- or Slovak Air Forces?? (I don´t mean the Slovak National Revolt Air Force, naturally.)

 

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- učitel napisal: Also a rare fact is a combat using of French light fighter Caudron CR. 714 Cyclone (Finnish Air Force obtained this type at number of six, but they stored them as useless in combat). But, when Polish airmen in France made some combat flights in these planes against Germans in 1940, they appreciated the Caudron performances as quite low, but the maneuverability seemed to be better than with MS. 406 C!!

 

- Today, I consider those sentences (their conclusion) for nonsensical! When I wrote this opinion four years ago, I took over words concerning Cyclone´s maneuverability from some English text; and - as I suppose - they have made a bad translation of an original Polish text. In the second half of 1970´s I bought for air enthusiasts one well-known book - Andrzej Morgala: Polskie samoloty wojskowe 1939 - 1945 (Min. Obrony Nar., Warszawa 1976). I suppose, Mr. Morgala had then still a possibility to talk with some Polish veteran pilots who flew in Caudron Cyclone in Dywizjon Warszawski 1/145. Morgala well describes on pages 67-70 the history of using the type. I suppose, following sentences have become poorly understood: Nie znano jeszcze wówczas ujemnych cech tych maszyn i z entuzjazmem przyjmowano nowy sprzet, który mial odznaczać sie wyzszymi walorami bojowymi od posiadanych dotychczas Morane 406C1. Further, Morgala names some bad features of the Cyclone, described by Polish airmen in combat:

- very low speed of climbing ("nie chcialy iść w góre");

- very frequent defects of the automat of propeller setting;

- delicate undercarriage - mainly amortizers damaged very often;

- frequent defects during chassis extension; 

- defects in engine protection during a swooping;

- big pilot´s powers to control the rudders in the flight of maximal speed.

                                   So, Polish airmen - after those experiences - used to exploit this aircraft (having very delicate construction) as sport-club aircraft, trainers, not as full-value combat fighters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       (A. Morgala)