učitel

Hi, boys. A word or two to WWII fighters: - English test pilot Eric Brown, who tested both Allied, and Axis fighters during the war and in the postwar period, wrote several books about WWII fighters. In one his book, which I read many years ago, he always appreciates and compares not only concrete types, but versions and even subversions of determinate types in concrete time period and in certain war area of WWII. For example: Hurricane I/Spitfire I against Bf 109 E; Curtiss P-40 B/C against Bf 109 F (Western Desert); FW 190 A against Spitfire V/Typhoon/Spitfire IX; Mitsubishi Ki-15 „Babs“ against Curtiss P-36; Ki-43 Hayabusa against Curtiss P-40; A6M2 Zero against F4F Wildcat; Ki-44/Ki-61/Ki-84 against F6F Hellcat; FW 190 D against Spitfire XIV/Tempest/Thunderbolt, etc. As I remember, In the conclusion of one book he appreciates the best war fighters: After his opinion, first place went to Spitfire XIV, second - FW 190 D, third - P-51 D. Thunderbolt, for example, was on the seventh or eighth place – after his opinion! (= As I can see: 1) GB; 2)Germany; 3) U.S.A.) I think - If the list made a pilot of other war country (American-, Russian-, German-, Japanese one), the result would ended quite differently. - To spitfires: I have read a memoir written by a Czech veteran pilot (Liška or Fajtl). He described as he flew on a patrol flight with his "number". It was in 1943 or 1944 and he flew with Spitfire IX, whereas his number flew Sptfire V. He described that the flight was horrible thing. Older Spitfire V rose slowly and he had to wait (in circuits) for his number.

For "jancet": Oh, hard to say - I don´t know if the others could have understood my Czech. I suppose that Czech language is suitable for people from Upper Silesia and Teschen area, but what about the others???? For "Kadrinazi": This information comes from the book by Fynes Moryson/John Taylor: "A Journey to Czechia" ("Cesta do Čech"). Concrete sentences describing Gray´s regiment comes from a conclusion of the book that was written by a translator and a poet - Mr. Alois Bejblík on page 202.. Instead of Moryson´s "Itinerary", the book is also comprised from three Taylor´s leaflets: "Blessing of Heavens", "Englishmen´s Love to Czechia" and "A Journey to Prague"("Žehnání nebes", "Láska Angličanů k Čechám" a "Cesta do Prahy"). All three poems have celebrating character, Taylor was describing col. Gray´s regiment´s "heroism" in the leaflet called "Englishmen´s Love to Czechia"[/b][/u]. As I have read somewhere, col. Gray´s regiment didn´t get to Battle of Weissberg, the unit was used for the defence of Karlštejn citadel, probably in September/October 1620.

As I have learnt from the thirty year´s war archieve sources, in summer 1621, "Heidelberczyk" (Czech king Fridrich V Wittelsbach) intended using English regiment under command of colonel Andrew Gray against "Polish robbing people" who penetrated imperial Silesia from Poland. He meant against LISOWCZYCY. It is truth, col. Gray´s regiment - that was mostly comprised from criminals - thieves and murders - should have been used against similar types of "soldiers" - Polish Lisowczycy. In the end, it remainds only as wishes - becouse of imperial army drew to South Bohemia, the situation became dangerous for Protestant army and therefore Gray´s regiment was subordinated to Mansfeld´s Supporting Army and was directed to southwest area from Prague, Rokycany and Pilsen (Plzeň). Unfortunately, Czech armed forces were weak anyway, it was just three months before the Battle of Weissberg (Bílá hora).

I'm not angry at Geronimo. To the air tactics of I-16: I don't thing Soviet had to need the radio connection for certain air tactics of I-16 using. Fighters during WWI, or Republican pilots in Spain or Soviet pilots against Japanese over Chalkhin-gol in 1938 had no radio but they could to assign targets in their Polikarpov's fighter types.

Geronimo: "Przypominam, ze jezykiem forum jest jezyk polski zrozumialy dla wiekszosci forumowiczow." Geronimo, you're wrong. When I registred at this Polish historic forum last August, I had to agree with all orders, rules and provisions. I remember very well that there was written: "The only discussion language is Polish, with one exception - English." Geronimo, read this "FORUM rules" once more if you don't believe me! I also explained last year why I cannot write Polish: To write in Polish is much more difficult than to understand Polish! I have registered in this Polish forum because I consider that this FORUM has a high level and the Polish historical enthusiasts' knowledge is at a very high level, too. By the way, generally, Polish people have better relationship to history than Czechs have! (Kadrinazi, thanks for your support.)

Hard to say. Certainly, this theory would have not applied generally. For example, during Spanish Civil War, Soviet I-16s type 10 were quite good in maneuvering dogfight against Bf 109 B, while against Italian biplane – Fiat C.R. 32 – they had a probleme. On the other hand, an older German biplane Heinkel He 51 was not any problem for them. The essence of this theory was maybe not in own maneuvering combat, but in select enemy targets. Czech well-known veteran pilot František Fajtl wrote that during Battle of Britain (when Spitfires and Hurricanes attacked an enemy bombing air group together) Hurricanes had attacked German bombers, whist lighter Spitfires had fought with their air cover – with Messerschmitts. Another Czech veteran pilot, Lubomír Úlehla, who fought in the Western Desert with the Free French squadron in Curtiss P-40 F, wrote that when Allied fighters have got into maneuvering combat with German and Italian fighters together, initially - really maneuverable Macchi M.C. 202s had their „battle in the corners“ with Allied fighters, while a bit faster German Bf 109 Fs were waiting at the top as the reinsurance cover, and when some Allied fighter decided to break away from a fight, Messerschmitts intercepted it. But, he wrote that later it had not been often so: Italian fighters escaped from the fight and Germans stayed to fight alone.

Still to idea of using I-16. In the middle of 1930s there was such a theory of using I-16 in Soviet Air Force: According to original intention, there should have been placed both units of of Polikarpov's I-16 and I-15 together at one airfild. When they would take off against an enemy, both Soviet types would exploit their best priority: So I-16 - as a monoplane - was the best in horizontal turn, while 1-15 - as a biplane - was the best in vertical turn. These priorities would be used for a maneuvering dogfight with the enemy. But never was carried out this theory in practice, even before WWII. There was the airfields either with I-16, or with I-15 (I-15 bis). But it could have been interesting if after attacking the Soviet Union Messerschmitts had fought against I-16 type 24 (designed in 1939/40) and I-153 (designed in 1938) together! The crews of both Polikarpov's types would have to be well trained. Of course, Messerschmitt Bf 109 F was better than both Soviet fighters but if Soviet pilots would be trained very well for such a fight, German pilots wouldn't obliged to have an absolute superiority. By the way, "similar" theory of using two different types of fighters intended U.S.A.F. in 1970s. Then flights of lightweight fighter F-16 should have combat together with flights of heavy fighters F-15!

I can recognize quite well some American code names determined from first names of then celebrities. So: FRANCES - F. FARMER (film star) LILY - L. PALMER (film star) or L. MARLENE (cabaret hit song from 1916)? JUDY - J. GARLAND (cabaret singer and film star) LIZ - L. TAYLOR (child film star) RITA - R. HAYWORTH (dancer and film star) KATE - C. HEPBURN (film star) SONIA - S. HENIE (figure skater and film star) VAL - "VALENTINE" (musical hit song) GLEN - G. MILLER (bandleader of swing orchestra) REX - R. HARRISON (film star) IRVING - I. BERLIN (swing-song composer) FRANK - F. SINATRA (swing singer and film star) OSCAR - O. HAMMERSTEIN (film and musical producent) TOJO - Hideki Tódžó (Japanese First Minister and the main Japanese war villain) HAMP - general "Hap" Arnold (significant American general in Pacific) - A6M3 (type 32) ZERO - "RAISEN" = The figter for "0-year" (1940) Can anybody correct me or add anything else?

To my previous sentences, I can say that I don't know surely which celebrity was as the inspiration for other CODE NAMES: - Kyushu Q1W Tokai "LORNA": probably inspired by LORNA GRAY (film star). - Kawanishi N1K1 Kyofu "REX": This first name comes more from REX INGRAM (film star) than from REX HARRISON because Harrison was a British actor in fact. - Yokosuka P1Y Ginga "FRANCES" could be inspired either by FRANCES FARMER, or by FRANCES GIFFORD (film star). - Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate "FRANK" will be probably inspired by SINATRA, but FRANK CONROY (film star)is also possible. - Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien "TONY" could be inspired either by ANTHONY QUINN, or by ANTHONY CARUSO (both were film stars). - Mitsubishu A7M Reppu "SAM" could be inspired either by SAM LEVENE (film star), or by SAM WOOD (film director). - Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden "GEORGE" - there are many celebrities which are taken into account: GEORGE MURPHY, GEORGE TOBIAS, GEORGE REEVES and GEORGE TYNE (all of them were film stars).

Thanks for a minor correction. I can add Japanese types into American nicknames: FRANCES - F. FARMER - Yokosuka P1Y Ginga LILY - L. PALMER (or L. MARLENE?) - Kawasaki Ki-48 Sokei JUDY - J. GARLAND - Yokosuka D4Y Suisei LIZ - L. TAYLOR - Nakajima G5N Shinzan RITA - R. HAYWORTH - Nakajima G8N KATE - C. HEPBURN - Nakajima B5N SONYA - S. HENIE - Mitsubishi Ki-51 VAL - "VALENTINE" - Aichi D3A GLEN - G. MILLER - Yokosuka E14Y REX - R. HARRISON - Kawanishi N1K Kyofu IRVING - I. BERLIN - Nakajima J1N Gekko FRANK - F. SINATRA - Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate OSCAR - O. HAMMERSTEIN - Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa TOJO - Hideki Tojo - Nakajima Ki-44 Shoki HAMP - general "Hap" Arnold - Mitsubishi A6M3 type 32 Reisen (with reduced wings) ZERO - "REISEN" = The figter for "0-year" (1940) - Mitsubishi A6M Reisen

Not at all, Glasisch, next time I'll learn something from you! I have remembered another nickname for I-16. Russian pilots called it quite unusually - "ястребок" - then the Hawk. Such a little plane is not similar this predator, but we can take into account that I-16 was the best Russian fighter still in 1939/40. (Later MiG-3, for example, has looked very defiantly but it had no nickname. Such "ястребок" would be quite characteristic for it.)

Glasisch: „u lotników, piechurów i marynarzy po drugiej stronie barykady, czyli Niemców, samoloty miały ksywę Rata = szczur; zniekształcone niemieckie określenie tego gryzonia, bo poprawnie to Ratte (rodzaju żeńskiego)“ The RATA (the Spanish word) is a nickname that comes from Spanish Franco’s pilots - then from Spanish Nationalists, not from Germans. On the other hand, the Republicans nicknamed I-16 as the MOSCA, which means „the little fly“. Widiowy7: „Nie pokazali klasy na tych latających złomach. Były zbyt delikatne. O wyrównywaniu jakości samolotów, to można mówić dopiero od Ła-5FN i Ła-7. I cały czas Rosjanie mieli przewagę liczebną.“ I cannot agree with you the way you have written it: Why do you consider Jak-1 as „latający złom“? Jak-1 was maybe not yet technologically but in flight-performances as good as Bf 109 E. Of course, its workmanship - often under the open sky where the labourers were women at temporary built factories in Ural – was horrible, but the designer Jakovlev couldn’t for bad workmanship!! Then you write „cały czas Rosjanie mieli przewagę liczebną“ – yes, but which fighters caused this numerical superiority? Not La-5 or 7, but Jak-types caused that Russians won the war in the air! Their mass production reached more than 30.000 pieces. Surely, there was even better fighters than La-5 in 1942/3 – for example Polikarpov I-185. But the I-185 production would not be so fast and simple as Jak-types (especially Jak-1s and Jak-7s, while Jak-9s were produced with rather better quality). These moments were taken into account when strategic option for Russian war industry were considered in Kreml. From today’s view we can simply say „Jaks were scraps“ but we have to know all factors that had influenced then Russian war production and related manufactoring policy!

I´d like to know, what are rewiews of Polish PZL P. 50 Jastrząb. What would have been possibilities of an eventual dogfight against German Bf 1O9 E-1?

Still to PZL P.50 Jastrząb. This information comes from Czech avion historian Václav Němeček (I don't know the origin of his sources - if it comes from Morgala, or anybody else). The development of this aircraft was very secret in Poland. In spite of this, it was surprising enough when the P.50-prototype was shown for Italian foreign minister count Ciano in March, 1939. Němeček also wrote that P.50 was tested in summer 1939 in comparative tests against American fighter Seversky P-35. The results finished very well for the Polish airplane, but this comparison was not so relevant because American fighter was still out-of-date in 1939. I'd like to know the fate of the only finished prototype of P.50: Václav Němeček wrote that this plane had been shot down by own Polish anti-aircraft artillery on 5th September, 1939. Only when the pilot parachute landed, it was found that he was no enemy pilot but Polish pilot Widawski and he said that they had succeeded to shoot down the only prototype of the most advanced Polish fighter. Widawski was this prototype flying over from endangered Warsaw farther to the Polish Army rear.

I can add some interesting information about Slovak air aces flying with Axis forces. Slovak airmen were shooting down (and were attempting to shoot down) aircraft of various air forces during 1939-44. Their kills contained Polish, Russian, German, Hungarian and American planes. During Polish campaign, Slovak pilot rtk. František Hanovec together with des. Martin Žiaran and des. Viliam Jaloviar (each from letka 45 with Avia B-534) shot down Lublin R-XIII. It was in Ňaršany area on 6th September, 1939. Hanovec claimed ½ kill but later, during the campaign against Russia, he added further five kills on his credit (letka 13 as 13/JG.52 with Bf 109 G-2 and G-4). This unit reached most its kills in South Ukraine, Kuban and Krym in 1943 and Slovak pilots reached 215 confirmed kills, most kills were LaGG-3, Il-2 and Jak-1. The most succeeded ace was zvk. Ján Režňák (1919-2007) with 32 confirmed kills achieved in 36 dogfights. After Slovak airmen withdrew from Russia they participated in the defence of Slovakia, ecpecially in the defence of capital Bratislava. This is one rare event from April, 1944: Two experienced fighters took off for their „alarm start“ in Vajnory to intercept some Allied bombers. It was „die Rotte“ with rtm. Hanovec and rtn. Rudolf Božík. They didn’t start in new Bf 109 G-6 (which Slovak Air Force received in February 1944) but in old Bf 109 E. Rudo Božík suddenly saw a bigger single-handed plane with a twin rudder and big bombs beneath the fuselage, so he thought it had been the Liberator. He attacked the big plane and shot it down in flames. But, he knew his tragic mistake very late: the lonely aircraft was no Liberator but German heavy fighter Bf 110 G! It had no bombs but big dropped additional fuel tanks. Both Slovak pilots agreed that they had shot down an Allied four-engine bomber. The Bf 110 pilot died but his rear gunner saved his life as a parachute. Fortunately, German gunner told to his „Meldung“ that their Bf 110 was shot down by American type Mustang!!! He only noticed the reduced ends of wings of „the enemy“ fighter. German gunner simply didn’t suppose that an old and out-of-date Bf 109 E could have been used still in 1944 in action! After the outbreak of the Slovak National Revolt Rudolf Božík became the anti-fascist. Then he could have shot down German aircraft oficially. During the anti-nazi revolt he added further 2,5 kills (1 Ju 88 and 1,5 FW 189, together with František Cyprich). Both fighters flew in Bf 109 G-6 and E from Tri Duby (Kombinovaná letka) till 18th September 1944. Except it, Božík shot down 9 Russian planes in Ukraine, then he shot down both Russian, and German planes. Šrtm. Cyprich is well-known by his kill of Hungarian Ju 52 when he was flying in B-534 in Tri Duby. My former schoolmate told me many years ago that as Cyprich had attacked on Ju 52, he turned his Avia B-534 on back and this way he achieved to the enemy plane. But the Hungarian plane transported only mail and therefore lots of letters were spread in mountains and forests. Cyprich became 5th most succeesful Slovak pilot (12 Russian planes and 2,5 during anti-german revolt).

ZGODA. (You're good in English)

Czytałem o Me-264, ale to był prototyp, więc ciężko go porównywać z maszynami produkowanymi seryjnie... I have not compared Me 264 with anything, I only have written that "the front part of its cabin is a bit similar as B-29"!! You could have read about Me 264 in a reference which I have sent (http). It is a generally known thing that Me 264 was the prototype and its cathegory is not the same as B-29.

I add still also a picture of Me 264. The front part of its cabin is a bit similar as B-29. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_264

Yes, you’re right. As I can read (I think in the book Dymič/Šedivý: „Triumph + Tragedy“), Polikarpov I-16 and MiG-3 have been quite unstable-in flight planes, quite hard for pilotage of inexperienced pilot. That’s why I have written that the information, coming from mentioned British pilot, is an interesting thing. Concerning Spain Civil War, Russians sent there type 5 (Mosca) and type 10 (Super Mosca). As I can read in books of S. Matyáš (specialist for air battles over Spain), both types – especially type 10 – had better performances than Messerschmitt Bf 109 B (with Jumo 210 D). But Legion Condor used also later vesions Bf 109 C (with Jumo 210 G) and Bf 109 D in which Mölders has flown and claimed 14 kills. The Bf 109 D-3 used even 20 mm-wing cannons Oerlikon FF. I once read that common Bf 109 D was as good as Morane MS.406 C. But final I-16 version from 1939 - type 24 - has never been used in Spain.

A friend of mine, an air enthusiast – he‘s interested in „the warbirds“ – historic war planes which have been still flying - told me that in Novosibirsk there is a factory where are those „warbirds“ produced. Their produce line is of course small, they build aircraft (mostly single-engined fighters) for richmen in America. They already have made some Jak-3s, Zeros, La-5 or 7, and also Polikarpov I-16 type 24 powered by original M-62 engine. My friend told me a few years ago as he had read about feelings of British pilot who flew this I-16, an experienced pilot who has flown lots of Allied „warbirds“. That pilot said that as he had been able to find out, Polikarpov I-16 is very manoeuvrable plane, stable in flight. If he should compare, Polikarpov I-16 is at least as good as Hurricane or even best than this plane. – Interesting!!

W ankiecie wymieniono typy a nie poszczególne wersje. Yes, I know. But the problem of the list of named fighter type is that there are named both only basic types (Hurricane, Spitfire, Jak, Bf 109, Me 262, Focke-Wulf, ZERO), and the versions of particular types (Mustang IV, P-40E), and independently MC.202 Folgore. Their engine- and flight characteristics were very different. For example the carburetor engine RR Merlin of Spitfire Mk.V had completely different influence for its flight maneuvers, than the turbocharger engine RR Griffon of Spitfire Mk.XIV. - But, I must agree that the design of Spitfire (from Mk.I to Mk.21) contained great possibilities for modification of original design (Mk.I) - Also fighter line Jak (Jak-1,7,9,3, and thein subversions) contained great possibilities for modification of original design (I-26) - On the other hand, Bf 109, hadn’t so good possibilities for development its design: between B-1 (from 1936) and E-3 (from 1939) are very small differences of thein designs, caused by using of other engine type. Also between F-2 (from 1940) and K-4 (from 1944) are very small differences of thein designs caused by using other subversion of DB.601-605 engines, and of course by arms. - Minimal modifications contained the ZERO-line. Between A6M2 from 1940 and A6M5 from 1943 there were only changes in the using of engine (A6M3) and various platform of wings: type 21-22-32-52 - Also FW.190 A, F (from 1941 to 1943, from A-1 to F-8) contained minimal modifications. I don’t take into account B and C experimental versions and FW.190 D, which was quite different fighter because it was quite different design and characteur of engine; it means for Ta.152 as well. But all the 190s were excellent fighters. - Me 262s using in actions were only single-seat A-version and two-seater B, but changes in their design were also none Mustang IV (American mark P-51 D) was one of the most widespread and most excellent version of Mustang (P-51A – P-51H) Also P-40 E quite good plane and the most widespread version of Warhawks. Concrete MC.202 Folgore was nearly the same type as cannon MC.205 Veltro, their design had no special changes. Mario Castoldi then developed MC.205 N Orione, but it was never used.

Unfortunatelly, his opinions, comparisons and conclusions are not known. Colonel Maňák died in 1993 or 1994 and wrote no memoirs. But the (civil) Czechoslovak Airlines used his abilities: after 1965 he flew Il-14, Tu-124, Tu-134 and he was the only veteran Czech pilot who piloted also Il-62 in 1969/70, but he retired, soon. During WWII he became to one of two pilots who survived the emergency landing on the sea level with Hawker Typhoon.

Jack Sparrow, no doubt that B-29 was much better then older He 111. I only wrote last year that "classical old He 111 was overload at a closing period of WWII - so that we can consider it for a heavy bomber too!" But no doubt, of course, B-29 was more up-to-date and He 111 wasn't a classical strategic bomber either!

Secesjonista, it would be better to adapt your performances for Bf 109 and Fw 190 to metric system. Your question would be more persuasive and generally clear for everyone.

British (616th Squadron) began to use Meteors Mk. I since June, 1944. They were jet fighters powered by weaker engines Rolls-Royce „Welland“, reached no more than 656 km/h – it means no more than Spitfire Mk. IX! During this summer, Meteors I were used for intercepting V-1 flying bomb. It is an interesting thing, Meteors I succeeded to shoot down more than 10 flying bombs in spite of having not so excellent its maximal speed. For example – then Rolls-Royce factory technicians arrived at some airfields where Spitfires Mk. XIV C were located. They set and debuged their RR „Griffon“-engines to reach their maximal power while air maintenance polished aircraft surface to gain minimal air resistance. This way Spitfires XIV reached maximal speed much more than 700 km/h to intercept the newest version of Fi-103. In autumn, 1944 616th Squadron got Meteors Mk. III with more powerful jet engines Rolls-Royce „Derwent“. Their maximal speed were 768 km/h, but this time V-1s stopped launching. So, Meteors III were using for ground attack, for example in Ardenes in December, 1944. After war, Sqn/Ldr Jiří Maňák, DFC, was sent by Czechoslovak AF to England for training and testing Meteor III to gain some jet opinions for postwar Air Force. After his return he tested also Avia S-92 (Messerschmitt Me 262 A) and he was the only Czech pilot who flew both Meteor, and Schwalbe jet fighters. Till 1948 Czechoslovak Air Force considered the posibility to buy Meteor, or to re-produce Me 262 as S-92 on Avia-producing lines. But after communist putch in February, 1948, the communist government ordered to draw direction to Soviet aircraft technology. The result was Soviet jet interceptor Jak-23 and excellent MiG-15.